"Christians and their unwillingness to rise up against the structures of their faith" seems to me EXACTLY the point. Having faith might not be a choice, but embracing the structures and teachings of a particular religion is. And if you embrace the structures and teachings, I don't think you can pick out the bits of good ideals and discard the darkness. We have to take responsibility for that which we embrace.
Mark Charles in "Unsettling Truths:" (Paraphrase) The American church is happy to offer Christ as a personal Saviour to address individual sins. (Quote) "However, the need to address corporate sins like stolen lands, broken treaties, genocide, slavery, sexism, systematic injustice, white supremacy, and Christendom itself is ignored or outright rejected. ... For white Christians and the American church, bringing the blood of Christ into transgenerational, corporate, and systemic sins like the Doctrine of Discovery would require not only a complete rejection of the heresy of Christian empire but possibly returning all the fruits that were gained through that heresy." (Later passages discard the "possibly" in "possibly returning.")
I like the idea of a native God. I'm not much for spiritualism beyond loving the Earth and treating people well. To me that's why we're here. To take care of each other and leave the place better than we found it. That's holy to me these days.
Wow, really great message today. I am a 70 year old Presbyterian-Episcopalian-Buddhist-Jew- who was raised by a Presbyterian minister father. His belief was that we all found God in our own way and on our own path. While I remember seeing beatific pictures of Jesus as a child-my focus was always on the mystery of God(and rather ignoring the middle man). I have to confess that I have less than a handful of profound spiritual experience within the confines of a building (they have happened), many more in the forests, mountains, beaches that I have had the opportunity to visit.
I am so weary of the weaponization of Christianity and Jesus and don't "believe" in those professing to be Christian or their message/misogyny for a moment. It isn't lost on me that a country that was founded on the freedom of religion doesn't practice that in any way. I have profound respect for, as your 5th grader referred to as, "Native God". And while I may be in the minority, I think of Native People if not daily, at least weekly. I really appreciate your openness and willingness to share. Thank you.
I know that we are coming to this juncture from very different paths, but I think that we are staring at the same signpost here. To continue your bloody spear motif, I don't see a way into a "mainstream" religion that doesn't lead to blood on my own hands. I also don't see a way into atheism or some sort of broad rejection of the mystic that doesn't lead me to betraying my own sense of soul. So what is there to do?
I went to an aura reading last week in this spot in downtown Little Rock that was sort of snuck in an artist's studio across the hall of a ballet studio that was hosting a class of 30-somethings who were trying to learn to gracefully leap and bound. The short, blonde hippy bro who did the reading took one look at my aural photograph and said "whoa, I've never seen that before." During his reading he pointed to a swath of white smeared above my head and asked me if I lived my life in a constant state of mental negotiation, and damnit if he didn't have me pegged. He also said that he could see that I had six ancient souls looking out for me. So I got that going for me, which is nice.
"Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We, also, have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us, their children. We worship in that way. It teaches us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and be united. We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit. Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion or take it from you; we only want to enjoy our own." Sagoyewatha 1805
Although I have no religious affiliation, I'm not an atheist nor am I an agnostic. From people throughout the world who have struggled spiritually, I've learned that there has to be something better. I see Jesus as something like a Zen teacher with baffling stories and multiple koans including, "Who do you think I am?" I take that question to heart from a man who struggled spiritually and was murdered for being the only self he could honestly be. The way I hear his question is with the emphasis on the word "you." I hear him asking for honesty. No right or wrong answer. No judgment on his part. And so I think he is a mystery that has been hijacked by many, followed in spirit by few. All I know for sure is that he loved and he suffered and spent much of his time walking with people who, like him, struggled spiritually. I have no doubt that he loved butterflies and flowers.
I don't think it's possible to improve on Gandhi re the distinction between Christ and Christians.
I'm pretty much an atheist. I understand and appreciate the wisdom of every human culture that has ever been on the subject but I just can't bring myself to believe in any of it.
If you haven't listened to this before, Chris, I think you might get something from Prof. Toole's lecture on the "Flathead Apostasy" -- his presentation is kind of dated, but an interesting story.
Native God is the spirit that lives in everything. This is how I see the world, though not being of native descent I try to be careful not to appropriate - yet to me that is what's true. It is in nature that I related to spirit. The Christianity of today doesn't seem to resemble even the stories I learned growing up of Jesus - and that Jesus was the one who lost it with the money changers at the temple, no, he would not relate to any of what's being done in his name. The only thing I know is that anger and hate cannot be undone by more anger and hate. Finding a path to love and letting that love change the world is just crazy hard. I think sometimes at the moment of feeling the most anger is when we are closest to truly opening our hearts. I wonder a lot if I am afraid to truly open my heart.
you are not alone in all this. i'm not a native except to the planet and i often doubt that. i don't 'believe' in belief don't have 'faith' in faith wouldn't give god a glass of water if he/she/it/they needed it. "if god is good he is not god; if god is god he is not good" Archibald MacLeish in JB. but i sometimes experience what is most holy most sacred most spiritual. i'm grateful for that esp. this late in this little life of mine. keep on writing these excellent words.
I was raised in the Lutheran church, left it, finally began to study theology and struggle with it, and will never have many answers that satisfy me but that's OK with me. It saddens me that Christianity, in this country at least, is now identified as right-wing "Christianity" with their white Jesus and their bigotry and intolerance. I know about the sins and crimes committed in the name of religion but without accepting those sins and crimes as the will of God. I can only relate to a God of all people, a God who expects us to care for each other, though we never live up to that expectation.
there's so much about the St Ignatius mission that gets to me. I'm so amazed it hasn't been burned to the ground. If my people had been abused in that manner I would be so angry it would not be left standing.
This is such a thoughtful post, thank you. It’s an odd thing that religions & spiritual practices can break your heart with beauty or end worlds with evil. Or lots in between of course. I guess the tension is what makes them human. One reason I left Christianity is because I thought it didn’t end up telling very healthy stories for humans -- which is strange because you would think that most of the stories would be good stories for us. But as it turn out, most humans latch on to the part of Christianity that encourages a myopic view of the world -- having the only access to the Good Word, the only access to Heaven, etc. -- and the other stories about helping the poor and so on don’t seem to exert as much influence.
In general, believing in something larger than ourselves is maybe not such a good story for us. Maybe it’s not helpful to get distracted by spiritual imaginings, and better to stay grounded in the real suffering and joys around us. And yet, as you point out, there are those butterflies and flowers -- and somehow, at least in me, they do inspire faith in beauty and in cycles beyond my control. A Native God is a good name for that faith.
I am a Christian, and these words--"The rest are largely silent in their condemnation. What other conclusion can I come to then about Christians and their unwillingness to rise up against the structures of their faith – if not in the name of this so-called “Jesus” they claim to follow, but at least then for the people the church has caused the most suffering to, i.e. non-white people – than that they are just too comfy in their deeply white supremacist-based status quo?"-- broke my heart because they are way too often true. We are silent, we are comfortable, and we are ignorant of the reality that we have helped create. And yet...the fault lies with us, not with Jesus. He hated hypocrisy--see his condemnation of the leaders of his time in the gospels. He included and welcomed the sad, the ill, the oppressed and the forgotten to his table and his embrace. He spoke angrily against the hard-heartedness that allowed a person to count less than the laws men had created. And yes, I think there are MANY so-called Christians (not just today's bunch, but throughout time) that will face that same disgust and ire. But--I also believe there is a remnant who try with much effort to love, to understand, to help and to serve. We call ourselves the hands and feet of Jesus. We are not doing it perfectly--there are still many holes in our efforts--but to quote Maya Angelou, "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”
The solution, in my opinion, is to listen and learn--and then to pray for wisdom on how to act. That's why I continue to read your posts. I want to learn from your story.
"Christians and their unwillingness to rise up against the structures of their faith" seems to me EXACTLY the point. Having faith might not be a choice, but embracing the structures and teachings of a particular religion is. And if you embrace the structures and teachings, I don't think you can pick out the bits of good ideals and discard the darkness. We have to take responsibility for that which we embrace.
Mark Charles in "Unsettling Truths:" (Paraphrase) The American church is happy to offer Christ as a personal Saviour to address individual sins. (Quote) "However, the need to address corporate sins like stolen lands, broken treaties, genocide, slavery, sexism, systematic injustice, white supremacy, and Christendom itself is ignored or outright rejected. ... For white Christians and the American church, bringing the blood of Christ into transgenerational, corporate, and systemic sins like the Doctrine of Discovery would require not only a complete rejection of the heresy of Christian empire but possibly returning all the fruits that were gained through that heresy." (Later passages discard the "possibly" in "possibly returning.")
I like the idea of a native God. I'm not much for spiritualism beyond loving the Earth and treating people well. To me that's why we're here. To take care of each other and leave the place better than we found it. That's holy to me these days.
Wow, really great message today. I am a 70 year old Presbyterian-Episcopalian-Buddhist-Jew- who was raised by a Presbyterian minister father. His belief was that we all found God in our own way and on our own path. While I remember seeing beatific pictures of Jesus as a child-my focus was always on the mystery of God(and rather ignoring the middle man). I have to confess that I have less than a handful of profound spiritual experience within the confines of a building (they have happened), many more in the forests, mountains, beaches that I have had the opportunity to visit.
I am so weary of the weaponization of Christianity and Jesus and don't "believe" in those professing to be Christian or their message/misogyny for a moment. It isn't lost on me that a country that was founded on the freedom of religion doesn't practice that in any way. I have profound respect for, as your 5th grader referred to as, "Native God". And while I may be in the minority, I think of Native People if not daily, at least weekly. I really appreciate your openness and willingness to share. Thank you.
I know that we are coming to this juncture from very different paths, but I think that we are staring at the same signpost here. To continue your bloody spear motif, I don't see a way into a "mainstream" religion that doesn't lead to blood on my own hands. I also don't see a way into atheism or some sort of broad rejection of the mystic that doesn't lead me to betraying my own sense of soul. So what is there to do?
I went to an aura reading last week in this spot in downtown Little Rock that was sort of snuck in an artist's studio across the hall of a ballet studio that was hosting a class of 30-somethings who were trying to learn to gracefully leap and bound. The short, blonde hippy bro who did the reading took one look at my aural photograph and said "whoa, I've never seen that before." During his reading he pointed to a swath of white smeared above my head and asked me if I lived my life in a constant state of mental negotiation, and damnit if he didn't have me pegged. He also said that he could see that I had six ancient souls looking out for me. So I got that going for me, which is nice.
"Brother, we do not understand these things. We are told that your religion was given to your forefathers, and has been handed down from father to son. We, also, have a religion which was given to our forefathers, and has been handed down to us, their children. We worship in that way. It teaches us to be thankful for all the favors we receive; to love each other, and be united. We never quarrel about religion, because it is a matter which concerns each man and the Great Spirit. Brother, we do not wish to destroy your religion or take it from you; we only want to enjoy our own." Sagoyewatha 1805
Although I have no religious affiliation, I'm not an atheist nor am I an agnostic. From people throughout the world who have struggled spiritually, I've learned that there has to be something better. I see Jesus as something like a Zen teacher with baffling stories and multiple koans including, "Who do you think I am?" I take that question to heart from a man who struggled spiritually and was murdered for being the only self he could honestly be. The way I hear his question is with the emphasis on the word "you." I hear him asking for honesty. No right or wrong answer. No judgment on his part. And so I think he is a mystery that has been hijacked by many, followed in spirit by few. All I know for sure is that he loved and he suffered and spent much of his time walking with people who, like him, struggled spiritually. I have no doubt that he loved butterflies and flowers.
I don't think it's possible to improve on Gandhi re the distinction between Christ and Christians.
I'm pretty much an atheist. I understand and appreciate the wisdom of every human culture that has ever been on the subject but I just can't bring myself to believe in any of it.
If you haven't listened to this before, Chris, I think you might get something from Prof. Toole's lecture on the "Flathead Apostasy" -- his presentation is kind of dated, but an interesting story.
https://scholarworks.umt.edu/toolesmontana/5/
[I've attached a link, but have no idea if it'll come through. If it doesn't, and anyone in interested, drop me a line.]
Native God is the spirit that lives in everything. This is how I see the world, though not being of native descent I try to be careful not to appropriate - yet to me that is what's true. It is in nature that I related to spirit. The Christianity of today doesn't seem to resemble even the stories I learned growing up of Jesus - and that Jesus was the one who lost it with the money changers at the temple, no, he would not relate to any of what's being done in his name. The only thing I know is that anger and hate cannot be undone by more anger and hate. Finding a path to love and letting that love change the world is just crazy hard. I think sometimes at the moment of feeling the most anger is when we are closest to truly opening our hearts. I wonder a lot if I am afraid to truly open my heart.
Thank you. I’ve been travelling in Papua lately and thinking a lot about the impact of missionaries. I agree with you.
you are not alone in all this. i'm not a native except to the planet and i often doubt that. i don't 'believe' in belief don't have 'faith' in faith wouldn't give god a glass of water if he/she/it/they needed it. "if god is good he is not god; if god is god he is not good" Archibald MacLeish in JB. but i sometimes experience what is most holy most sacred most spiritual. i'm grateful for that esp. this late in this little life of mine. keep on writing these excellent words.
I was raised in the Lutheran church, left it, finally began to study theology and struggle with it, and will never have many answers that satisfy me but that's OK with me. It saddens me that Christianity, in this country at least, is now identified as right-wing "Christianity" with their white Jesus and their bigotry and intolerance. I know about the sins and crimes committed in the name of religion but without accepting those sins and crimes as the will of God. I can only relate to a God of all people, a God who expects us to care for each other, though we never live up to that expectation.
there's so much about the St Ignatius mission that gets to me. I'm so amazed it hasn't been burned to the ground. If my people had been abused in that manner I would be so angry it would not be left standing.
Maybe not life is more mystery the older I grow
"Everything is a spiritual struggle." Agreed. 🙏
This is such a thoughtful post, thank you. It’s an odd thing that religions & spiritual practices can break your heart with beauty or end worlds with evil. Or lots in between of course. I guess the tension is what makes them human. One reason I left Christianity is because I thought it didn’t end up telling very healthy stories for humans -- which is strange because you would think that most of the stories would be good stories for us. But as it turn out, most humans latch on to the part of Christianity that encourages a myopic view of the world -- having the only access to the Good Word, the only access to Heaven, etc. -- and the other stories about helping the poor and so on don’t seem to exert as much influence.
In general, believing in something larger than ourselves is maybe not such a good story for us. Maybe it’s not helpful to get distracted by spiritual imaginings, and better to stay grounded in the real suffering and joys around us. And yet, as you point out, there are those butterflies and flowers -- and somehow, at least in me, they do inspire faith in beauty and in cycles beyond my control. A Native God is a good name for that faith.
I am a Christian, and these words--"The rest are largely silent in their condemnation. What other conclusion can I come to then about Christians and their unwillingness to rise up against the structures of their faith – if not in the name of this so-called “Jesus” they claim to follow, but at least then for the people the church has caused the most suffering to, i.e. non-white people – than that they are just too comfy in their deeply white supremacist-based status quo?"-- broke my heart because they are way too often true. We are silent, we are comfortable, and we are ignorant of the reality that we have helped create. And yet...the fault lies with us, not with Jesus. He hated hypocrisy--see his condemnation of the leaders of his time in the gospels. He included and welcomed the sad, the ill, the oppressed and the forgotten to his table and his embrace. He spoke angrily against the hard-heartedness that allowed a person to count less than the laws men had created. And yes, I think there are MANY so-called Christians (not just today's bunch, but throughout time) that will face that same disgust and ire. But--I also believe there is a remnant who try with much effort to love, to understand, to help and to serve. We call ourselves the hands and feet of Jesus. We are not doing it perfectly--there are still many holes in our efforts--but to quote Maya Angelou, "I did then what I knew how to do. Now that I know better, I do better.”
The solution, in my opinion, is to listen and learn--and then to pray for wisdom on how to act. That's why I continue to read your posts. I want to learn from your story.